Renew Subscription Did they release much info about it on the trucks? Also fits '05-'06 Pontiac GTO (differential side). Why the Sonnax forged covers and pistons solve the problem. Quick 4 Stand-Alone Transmission Control System The Ford 10R80 has a fill plug and dipstick on the passenger side of the case like the 6R80 transmission. Knowledge is power use it to protect your customer, your unit and yourself for miles and miles to come. The transmission lacks a direct-drive, but features two overdrive gears. While converter failures are not uncommon with other transmission families, you are thinking that this is really becoming a pattern for the 6L80, 6L90. GM 10L80: A new kind of pump noise. You know where this is going yup, its the converter. Subscribe Now In any event, precise coordinate measuring (CMM scans) of a variety of JMBX covers shows that the covers are wavy and have undulations on the clutch surface, especially opposite of the welded cover pads. Related Articles Dana offers Spicer end yokes for Allison Transmissions ATI introduces six-speed Chevy transmission performance package Georend Transmission adds Ford 6R140 transmission pan kit. Jeff Smith: The TCI six-speed automatic is indeed a revamped or upgraded 4L80E. Running 12.60s at 111 is a fun ride! Copyright 2006-2020 GEARS Magazine. check the starter bendix and see if its loose and bouncing off the flywheel. The 6L80 denotes that the transmission is a 6-Speed, Longitudinally mounted, and for 8000 lbs. Continue to accelerate (may apply slightly more throttle after 7-8 upshift at 32-38 mph (51-61 km/h) until you achieve 55 mph (88 km/h) and the 8-9 and 9-10 shifts complete. Your email address will not be published. In this video I show how to change flush the transmission fluid and filter on a 2012 Chevrolet Silverado with 6.2L with the 6 speed automatic 6L80E Our transmission shop specializes in rear wheel drive Ford & GM high performance transmissions. The TCI six-speed version has a few special additions to it. vehicle weights. There are five main inputs the vehicle uses for transmission shift strategy, they are: The Adaptive Learning Drive Cycle must be performed after any of the following procedures are performed: Perform the adaptive learning drive cycle on a level road surface as follows: After the final step, place the vehicle in park and cycle the ignition key off. This is the abridged version of my problem. The 6L80 would have big shoes to fill, with legendary predecessors like the TH400, 4L80E and 4L60E transmissions. For now, the bulk of reported cases are related to diesel vehicles. Gm hydro 10 speed. The GM 10L80 Hydra-Matic transmission is one such hybrid component that General Motors jointly developed with, wait for it, the Ford Motor Company! For a type B code, the fault must be present after two consecutive ignition cycles, otherwise, the MIL will not illuminate (however, a pending code will store). Commanded engine torque: Directly affects shift scheduling, TCC scheduling, and transmission diagnostics. Wait 1 second. The 6l80E transmission are the same through the entire line with changes made thru production in electronics. Convert your american classic car with more modern technology. This pan fits the GM 6L90, 6L90E transmission, typically found on these vehicles: . So, what's the unique problem with the 6L80, 6L90 converter found in full-size vehicles? document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. I think the extra gears and the taller overdrive would be nice but I wonder if it's worth all the effort. ** Currently 10L80 units are 2017+ so are dealer-only or salvage yard only. I believe this would allow a lower horsepower engine to perform similarly to a higher HP engine mated to a TH400. Engine torque estimate: Directly affects shift pressure control, TCC control, and transmission diagnostics. First introduced in 2005, the 6L80 transmission is a 6-speed automatic gearbox that is made by General Motors at their Willow Run transmission factory in Ypsilanti Michigan, and at their transmission plant in Toledo, Ohio. They are listed as Type A, Type B, and Type C diagnostic trouble codes. Comparing that to our old TH-400 combo, wed need 5.40:1 rear gear to equal the overall First Gear ratio in the new Corvette. Will it be like the 5th gen's where the ss got the 6L80 and the more powerful ZL1 got the 6L90? The idler gear is what drives the pumps driven gear. 2nazty New Member. The 6L90 transmission is slightly longer and taller than a comparable configuration 6L80 due to its beefier internals. It is a dog in the summer time. Now it has RPM Level 6 but if a 6L80E or 6L90E swap was introduced or even the 8 and 10 transmissions it would be a game changer. If you have your heart set on a six-speed automatic to back your LS, consider TCI's 6X transmission. and can weigh up to ~230 lbs. One needs to realize that the stamped covers are not all that flat to begin with. So if there are any possible ways to upgrade the RPM Level 6 4L70E in my 416 CI Trailblazer, the 4L80E in my Silverado with a LS2 with heavily worked and milled 243s, Ported and polished Fast LSXRT 102mm intake, and the Caprice PPV I am looking for the right one. Need to convert 10L80 rom 4wd to 2wd. At times the 10-speed transmission may skip gears when the vehicle starts from a complete stop. However, at light pedal or road load, single-step upshifts will occur. AM-DT-51190 threads into that port and connects to the J-45096 TransFlow. This transmission makes an excellent conversion transmission due to its adaptability into most Jeeps longer than CJ5s. Fluid Capacity 13 qts, First 4.70 If the transmission fluid is discolored or has evidence of debris in the fluid, it would be recommended to replace the torque converter and flush the system to complete this repair. $ 158.00 Select options. With this in mind, there are (3) major groups of failure management strategies that are used when certain diagnostic trouble codes are present. For both types A and B, a freeze-frame record will be stored in memory if the MIL illuminates. While not new to the 6L80, it uses an Input Speed Sensor to monitor input speeds to compare against engine speed and Output Shaft Sensor speed, using this data to adjust shift speeds under instantly detectable conditions. The Sonnax forged covers and pistons are designed to be flat and will stay that way through the forces of converter welding, miles of driving and varying input torque from the engine. In the TMBX, the damper is on the transmission side of the clutch piston, and in the JMBX, the damper is located on the engine side of the piston. In doing this, we evaluated another GM unit the 4L60-E TMBX to see if we could pick up any clues. * EXCELLENT FOR VEHICLES THAT ARE EQUIPPED WITH ENGINES PRODUCING UP TO 650 FT LBS OF TORQUE. GM now also offers both 8- and 10-speed automatics. The 6L80 (and similar 6L90) is a six-speed automatic transmission built by General Motors at its Willow Run Transmission plant in Ypsilanti, MI.It was introduced in late 2005, and is very similar in design to the smaller 6L45/6L50, produced at GM Powertrain in Strasbourg, France.It features clutch to clutch shifting, eliminating the one-way clutches used on older transmission designs. This means that its designed for rear wheel drive vehicles only. The complaint is usually associated with the vehicle sitting for a while (after it has been running at operating temperature). If thats the case, the valve body will have to be replaced to correct these concerns. Sticking valves and sticking CIDAS solenoids are becoming more common concerns with these units. The 8L90 and 6L80 have the same size output shaft and mounting pattern. Comparing the two cross sections, you also quickly see that the orientation of the spring dampers is different. None of the above categories describe me. Codes P0741 or P1744 may or may not set in the PCM or TCM (depending on application). Note, all models will have a warmer. Related Articles ATI introduces new e-clutch hub for ZF8HP51 Sonnax adds new stator support bushing for Ford 6F35 Alto adds to intermediate clutch PowerPack line for GM transmissions According to Sonnax, the heavy OE LFS, GFX announced a new pump component for GM Powerglide models, covering several vintage model years: 1950 through 1973. Thread starter 2nazty; Start date Nov 26, 2018; Nov 26, 2018 #1 2. Reverse 4.87. It was created to help GM meet ever more demanding CAFE regulations on their vehicles. The 6L80 features a generously deep first gear for an automatic, making for favorably powerful starts from a standing stop. Larry Callahan Founder/Administrator of Pro-Touring.com, G-Machines.com and HostMyJunk.com To advertise on Pro-Touring.com click here Note: The mounting pad is usually a part of the extension housing, but the graphic shows it on the maine case. Maximum shift speed is 6500 RPM. All this is handled with application of planetary ratios. It has factory size tires 275/55/20. Sonnax has a line of upgrade parts that address some of the 6L80 and 6L90 transmission weaknesses. Dissecting the E-Ray, the First Hybrid AWD Vette. As an example, combining the TCI Six-speeds 2.97:1 First gear with a 3.50:1 rear gear ratio is equal to a traditional TH-400 (or stock 4L80E) with a 4.19:1 rear gear. Based around the 4L80E (and fitting wherever a 4L80E will fit), the 6X is a true six-speed transmission that TCI rates at 850-plus horsepower. Required fields are marked *. Find Dealer. Heres what we mean: Lets assume we have a TH-400 trans in our Chevelle with a 4.10:1 rear gear. 3) 6L80E with fixed output flange is about 2 1/2" shorter than 4L60E and about 3 1/2" shorter than 200-4R. Use it to verify the vehicle has a M30 4L60ENow, if the transmission is out of the vehicle (or if you dont trust a sticker), the 6L80E has an 18 bolt case. GM has been useless to say the least, and waited me out (now off warranty). Chevrolet Transmission Dimensions Dimension "C" is the distance from the bellhousing to the center of the transmission mounting pad. NonStop-Transmission. But, GM had been in transmission limbo, so to speak, needing a modern transmission to fill the duty gap between the excellently versatile4L60E (and its tougher 4L65 & 4L70 variants)and the Allison transmissions. Upon full inspection, the unit is loaded with metal, and the pump (bell housing) is worn to the point of needing remachining or replacement. 6L80E Specs The 6L80 is a robust transmission and can handle a ton of power. It's a longitudinal transmission (that's what the L in 6 L 80E stands for). While working on a 2017-2018 Ford F150/Raptor, 2018 Expedition, Mustang, and Lincoln Navigator equipped with a 10R80 transmission, you may experience erratic TCC operation, or a TCC shudder concern. The 6L50, 6L80, 6L90, 8L45, 8L90, 10L60, 10L80, & 10L90 transmissions from MY2015 to current are filled through a port in the bottom of the oil pan. Double-step (skipping a gear) upshifts results when a longer time is spent in gear. GM states, ". If you are tearing down a new job and cant find any hard part failure that would result in the amount of metal you have in the pan, its just about certain that the inside of the torque converter looks like the disaster area shown in Figure 1. TH400, TH200-4R, TH700-R4, 4L60, 4L60E (without converter), 6L80E Fluid capacity with 258 mm converter, 6L80E Fluid capacity with 300 mm converter, 6L90E Fluid capacity with 300 mm converter. I believe the last digits of the model number are the power rating capabilities of the transmission. So you would need to begin with a 2008 or newer Express to be able to convert from a 4L80 to a 6L80 / 6L90. It appears that GM has put a very minor taper into the cover and possibly the piston as well. So is the 10L90 entirely different or does it just have stronger parts? In 2018 and later models with the transmission warmer mounted to the transmission, there can be a concern with coolant leaking under the vehicle. But in the 6L80 JMBX, we started to look very closely at the converter itself to see if we could determine a root cause. It looks nearly identical to the 6L90. Nothing but problems with it big clunks, engine revs up before grabbing a gear. Also since the transmission is different the gearing and tuning are naturally different. The exceptions to this would be the 2006-2014 Corvette, 2006 G8, 2010-2015 Camaro, and the Chevrolet SS. to 885 ft. Internal hydraulic leakage, hard part failures and contaminated/failed solenoids are all issues that can plague units, some more than others. When other diagnostic trouble codes are present, there can be different, specific drivability concerns caused by the failure management program. Online Buyer's Guide The overall First gear ratio is deeper at 2.97:1 which means the car builder can leave a taller rear gear ratio in the rear end and still have great First gear acceleration. vehicle weights. Seems like the 6 speed auto would be better for the torque curve. We had to use a spacer from Advanced Adapters but otherwise they are the same. Jeff Smith has had a passion for cars since he began working at his grandfather's gas station at the age 10. The readers on this site are a pretty sharp bunch. Brake pedal position: Directly affects shift scheduling and TCC scheduling, Air/fuel management adaptive values reset. We pride ourselves in staying at the forefront of our industry, technology, research & development and our commitment to you, our customer. Concerns can range from any of the following: These drivability concerns can be mistaken for transmission malfunctions. Lets talk about some of the concerns and fixes we have been seeing. Shift the transmission to Neutral. If there are worn valves or faulty inputs or controls, its easy to see how the clutch could start to shudder and quickly fail. Thanks to the optimal gear spacing, the engine RPM only drops approximately 20% when the 10L80 changes gear. and GCVW of 21,000 lbs. RATIOS 4.70, 2.99, 2.15, 1.80, 1.52, 1.28, 1.00, .85, .69, .64. The same shift strategy that is used for the upshift may be applied during a downshift. After programming, perform the Adaptive Learning Drive Cycle and reevaluate the vehicle. The transmission can also signal the engine to drop power during a shift if there's a possibility of clutch damage. 700R4 / 4L60E with PATC close ratio gear set. Although the basic engineering is the same, the GM 10L80 and Ford 10R80 each have proprietary control software, along with a few other differences that are suited for each specific application. Maximum engine input torque for the 6L80 is 440 ft. lbs. Smith began writing for Car Craft magazine in 1979 and became editor in 1984. A sectioned image of the 4L60-E TMBX and 6L80, 6L90 JMBX (Figure 3) shows the external profiles of the respective front covers are very similar. Is the out put shaft and splines on a 4L80E the same as a turbo 400? this means that dimension "C" is usually longer than dimension "B". Wait 2 seconds. only) '72-'79, Small Block V8, Gen. Check out delicious pictures and movies from Peter Mrup, Dennis Andersson and Svein Pedersen. Tenth 0.64 Because of this, the 6L80 - despite having two or three more gears than its predecessors, is unexpectedly short in length. or gross weight of 14,000 lbs. Before answering that question, its worth noting the role that Sonnax plays in the converter rebuilding business. The GM 10L80/90 transmissions began production in 2017, meaning that were closing in on six years of this transmission being on the road. I have a 2012 Corvette Grand Sport Auto trans. Will it be like the 5th gen's where the ss got the 6L80 and the more powerful ZL1 got the 6L90? 6L80, 6L90 Transmission Tech Advisory: Consider an Updated Converter in Your Next Rebuild We all know that automatic transmission failures can have many root causes. 10L80 vs 10L90 Transmissions. This platform did not get Gen 4 (58x CKP) engines until 2008. The way the power is applied is different than the 4L80E / TH-400. The 6L80E uses four under drive gears and two overdrive gears. If concerns are still present, it may be necessary to service or replace the valve body assembly (Figure 6). That is just the beginning. At times the 10-speed transmission may skip gears when the vehicle downshifts to a complete stop. This is an immediate DTC that effects emissions. The 6L80 transmission pan is similar in shape but the 6L80 is shorter at 17 1/2 inches. After a prolonged drive time, DTC P0752 Pressure Control Solenoid A Stuck On. About 80% of issues are cured by updating the programming. Click Get a Free Estimate for an unbeatable price on a replacement remanufactured transmission. Indirectly affects shift pressure control. I see where Summit Racing lists a TCI transmission that was originally a 4L80E but they list it as a six-speed transmission. Both 2wd and 4wd versions of the 6L80 can be used equally well, and there are no inherent advantages to either one once you have installed our adapter assembly. See how the ratios have swapped places? Even though it has two more gears, creative packaging allows the 10L80 transmission to be no bigger or heavier than an 8L90 or 6L90. Trans temps climbed to 195 and has stayed there ever since. 2024 Mustang Prices Are Out, Dark Horse Is . The idea behind this conversion offers multiple overlapping advantages. As a result, it became a popular choice despite sharing most of its internal components with its predecessor, the 700R4. What is a good torque converter today for a 4.3 high output 4 wheel drive Blazer? Upon a test drive and a scan, code P0741 is noted and the percentage of TCC slip shows to be way out of range. How is this different from the GM 6L80E transmission that is used in the Corvette or in the newer GM trucks? As these units accumulate more mileage, these concerns may become more frequent. This allows him to see what kinds of issues some of these transmissions come back to the dealer with while under warranty. 10L80 Transmission. It is a heavy duty version of the 6L80 six speed automatic with a strengthened input gearset which has two additional pinion gears for six total and a strengthened output gearset that uses wider gears than the 6L80. Its the best of both worlds. The 6L80 has surprised us power transmission aficionados with its wholesale adoption of new and very different technologies. Internal hydraulic leakage, hard part failures and contaminated/failed solenoids are all issues that can plague units, some more than others. Over time, technicians start to see the same patterns of failures in different families of units. The 6L80 was approved for use in these vehicles weighing up to 8600 lbs. The complaint A Ford vehicle equipped with the FNR5 transmission has a complaint of a severe slipping condition in reverse. LT). If you know the RPO code for the transmission you are golden. Specifications The 6L80 denotes that the transmission is a 6-Speed, Longitudinally mounted, and for 8000 lbs. August 8, 2022. Your car is quick! Accelerator pedal position: Directly affects shift scheduling, TCC scheduling, and transmission diagnostics. GM LS1 - 9 and Chrysler/Mopar Gen III & Viper V10, Chevrolet Transmissions with Dimensions and Fluid Capacity, Chrysler Transmissions with Dimensions and Fluid Capacity, Ford Transmissions with Dimensions and Fluid Capacity, Torque Converters with Dimensions and Fluid Capacity, TH700R4 / 4L60E / 4L65E Stage II - Stage V, 6L80E / 6L90E Frn Std till 1000Hp version, 6L80E / 6L90E From Stock to 1000Hp version. There may or may not be codes associated with these complaints. It employs an even deeper First gear ratio of 4.02:1 with tighter gear splits but does not apply an overdrive for subsequent gears. (incl. Ford describes their two different shift strategies as single and double step shifts. The idler gear itself has two threaded holes opposite each other for the use of a puller (see figure 1, above). var d=new Date(); This transmission is out of a Tur. If the warmer is not mounted to the transmission, refer to factory information to locate it. Thx The TCM is actually even programmed to adjust its operation for transmission clutch wear. It can also be controlled under DSC, or Driver Shift Control, e.g., "tap shifting". TH350 High Performance Transmissions / 850 Hp Full Race, TH400 High Performance Transmissions / Stage II - Stage VI, TH200-4R High Performance Transmissions / Stage I - Stage III och Full Race, TH700R4 / 4L60E / 4l65E High Performance Transmissions / Stage II - Stage V, 4L80E / 4L85E High Performance Transmissions / Stage I - Stage V, 6L80E / 6L90E High Performance Transmissions / Standard - 1000Hp, Speed Potential Calculator for Ring Gear and Pinion Changes, Engine Alternatives. To give you a sense of scope, for every single forged replacement cover that Sonnax sells for the 4L60-E TMBX, we sell many, many more for the 6L80/90 JMBX. A second electric 10L80 pump maintains fluid pressure when the stop/start function activates. A 2005 Ford F350 with the 6.0 liter diesel engine and 5R110W transmission has set a P0753 Pressure Control Solenoid A - Electrical Fault code and a P2700 Transmission Friction Element A - Apply Time Out Of Range code. This creates the situation where the engine drops less rpm from First to Second gear. This 7-3/8" long extension housing can eliminate transmission crossmember modifications when replacing a TH400 or TH200-4R transmission with a 4L60 assembly. GM was still using their trustworthy 4L80E transmissions for heavier duty use, which was essentially a 1960's technologyTH400with added 1990's overdrive and electronic controls. The GM 10L80/90 transmissions began production in 2017, meaning that we're closing in on six years of this transmission being on the road. The small 10-speed gear steps allow the engine speed to drop to lower values than it would in the 6-speed transmission, providing for the best fuel economy. It does not have a direct 1:1 ratio like the 4L80E and 4L60E, which is worth noting. lost energy) are reduced by only having two of the six clutches open at any time. In fact, there are absolutely no cast-iron components, including the 10L80 stator support. As with earlier Hydramatics, the 6L80 will accept either the 258mm or 300mm torque converters. It features a dry weight of ~195 lbs. The GM Hydramatic 6L80 transmission heralds a significant change in the design of automatic transmissions at General Motors. The traditional small-block six-bolt bellhousing pattern is the best and easiest way to identify a 4L60E style transmission if you find one at the swap meet for sale. Ninth 0.69 The 10R80 transmission is a 10-speed, rear-wheel-drive transmission that is controlled by a PCM or a TCM. Solution This 10L80 transmission problem could be the result of a failed oil cooler line fitting retaining bolt. In fact, the only 2017 model year vehicle that still comes with this transmission is the Chevrolet SS. Its extremely important to scan all modules for codes and address those codes first! $3,245*. This suggests that the idler gear and ball bearing assembly has a tight interference fit to the stator shaft support housing. The General Motors 6L80-E & 6L90-E transmissions are among the most diverse and capable transmissions of their time; being used in everything from exciting muscle cars to family SUV's. In this Drivetrain 101, we'll analyze all of its most prolific problems, solutions and upgrades. Thank You.. Jef, Swapping a LS3 and 6 spd trans in , In place of a 454 and a turbo 400 3 spd, I currently have posi rear, Big yolk drive shaft, after the conversion, will i need to mess with the rear gear, or will I be ok for around town and occasional red light duel. Lots of good information I do have one question That no one seems to be able to give a good answer to. The question is will the 10L80 be as strong as the 10L90? if (yr!=2012) DESIGNED FOR GEN V LT1 & LT4 ONLY. By the time a converter rebuilder opens up a JMBX, the damage is done, and it can be hard to see what happened first. All rights reserved. A horsepower revolution spawned by GM's increasingly powerful Gen. III+ V8 engines and their aggressive platforms such as the Cadillac STSV, XLRV, various trucks and SUV's and the venerable Corvette. Its like wheres Waldo. The replacement solenoid band number must match the band number of the solenoid being replaced. The customer approves a teardown. Most of the larger displacement applications will have an auxiliary oil-to-air cooler in the system as well. But look at the clutch pistons and spring dampers they are markedly different. But keeping the engine in its ideal RPM range allows the 10L80 transmission to operate with nearly the efficiency of a CVT transmission. Wait 3-5 minutes before driving. If you have any questions that I may be able to help you with, drop a comment or contact me. With 10 forward gears to choose from, the 10L80 transmission is able to reduce the fuel consumption of a high horsepower engine.